Gender Identity and Expression Differences for Individuals With Autism Part 2

Here is the second part of Tricia Lund, a Houston BCBA, who returns to talk about gender identity and expression differences in individuals with autism.  She has studied a great deal in the area as well as trauma informed care.  You are sure to be moved by the respect with which she talks about topics that are frequently not addressed for many people with disabilities.  Stay for the question at the end.  

Transcript

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Speaker 1 0:04

The content of this podcast is provided as general informational purposes. Only it is not intended for nor should it be used to replace professional behavior intervention and advice.

Speaker 2 0:13

This is sissy,

Speaker 3 0:14

And this is Susan and we are

Speaker 2 0:16

Function, junction

Speaker 3 0:18

Behavior matters. I really hope that our listeners enjoy part one of the interview with Trisha . Like we said, she is just so smart and she shared so much good research and great resources in part one, and continues to share more information on research with neurodiversity and gender diversity. Hope everybody enjoys it.

Speaker 2 0:41

Me too. You know what Susan also is, this one is episode 52. Oh . This episode wraps up one whole year of you and I talking to each other and to friends about people on the spectrum or people with disabilities and changing behavior. It's such a cool thing. It

Speaker 3 0:59

Is a cool thing. I can't believe we've been doing this for year. It doesn't seem like it, but I'll tell you what SIS, I don't know about you, but I have needed this. It's been good for me to , um, talk and think and just show up, you know what I mean? Cause it's been a rough year.

Speaker 2 1:17

It has been these last couple of years, you know , you know , moving into this third year of when are we going to get out of this virus thing? Um , yeah, it has been really helpful to me in that way, but it's also been helpful to me in learning new things , uh, and learning other, you know, how others have approached behavior. Um, and I definitely wanna say thank you so much to the people who listen to us on a regular basis and thank you so much to the people who listen every now and then. Yes , whoever I think we appreciate you so much.

Speaker 3 1:49

We do. We really do. And, and also thank you to the people that we've had on his guests. You know, Chris and Lucinda and Nicholas and Dr. Williams and Blair and Sharon and Jen, and we've had to so many great guests and Trisha . Um, they've learned a lot too. And I think it's interesting to have other people's perspectives on how they approach applied behavior analysis. You know? Yeah . Trisha's job is much different than yours , my job, but I'm still at very important job, you know? So, all right guys, well , listen, enjoy part two and we will be,

Speaker 4 2:24

Let me just tell you a little bit about this, this one article that I read that talked about, like what, what they wanna see in groups. So if you're gonna do, you know, some sort of a support group at school, or if you're gonna do, you know, something online, these are some things that the individuals and the parents said that they, they needed would be helpful to them . So one thing was individuals wanted to learn the skills related to gender style. So they wanted to know how to do hair or to do makeup or how to find outfits that would help them if they were interested in passing as a certain gender. Now, sometimes they're not, sometimes they just gender nonconforming and I wanna wear what I wanna wear and that's great. Right? But they found it very empowering and validating to gain specific skills in that because how many places are gonna teach that,

Speaker 3 3:07

Right.

Speaker 4 3:08

You know, not many or maybe not in the way that neurodiverse individuals need to be taught. And then they also wanted a safe place to try out different gender styles. And so, you know, you can do online, but they also found that if you have a group in school , um, maybe you meet after school or on the weekends or something. And it's just known that if you come that day wearing a skirt, cool, and the next day you come and you're not wearing a skirt. Cool. Right . So it's a safe place. You can try out what feels right for you. And then they also found that even just having a place where they could meet other individuals that had similar concerns and similar trials to them was incredibly helpful. Sure . And this is something that I found so interesting. So especially when I was teaching, you know, we were very much into, we wanna make sure that the special ed population has time with their typical peers. And that's great. I'm not saying that that's not for , but what I'm learning, especially with some of my individuals that are more, more independent, more verbal, more able to put themselves out there, they actually feel like they have a better friendship. If the friend is with someone who's also neurodiverse like them because they don't , they don't have to mask. They don't have to pretend to be neurotypical. They can just be who they wanna be. And they're understood. And so that group is one way to , to provide that.

Speaker 3 4:26

Yeah. You know, I , I , we talk, I think we talk about this a lot training about, you know, the , the myth is that people with autism wanna have friends and just don't know how to make them, you know, and I, and I always say, you know, that's true to some degree, I , I do know kids who have made social errors and have said things like, you know, unless I meet somebody like me, I'm just never gonna get married, you know, or I wanna make friends, but then, you know, they'll , we talk about a football game and then I'll throw in a star wars comment and they think I'm weird, but I see how star wars fits in with the football game, but they don't. But then I always say, you know, I know quite a lot of students who the parents have pushed, you know, peer support, peer buddy clubs, lunch, bunches, afterschool clubs, and students have said, really, I just wanna go upstairs and read my biology books. Like, I don't want these girls at my house. I don't want this other kid. Who's a , a young man who would say, you know, I just really wanna eat my , to go to the library. Like I don't wanna be around these people. And, you know, I'm torn because they're advocating, you know, they're self advocating for what they want, but the parents are really pushing this whole social piece and they don't want to be social. You know, they will work in a cubicle by themselves and, and be, you know, very successful young women and young men. And so that kind of goes along with that whole thing, Patricia, is that we push all this inclusion inclusion, which I think is great. My doctoral dissertation was on inclusion. Don't get me wrong, but there are some individuals who would prefer to be with people like them. I mean, we interviewed a young man named Chris and he talked about playing Dungeons and dragons in person , um , with a specific group of friends. And, you know, he didn't say this, but I, I wonder if maybe that specific group of friends maybe had other people in there who were quirky or on the spectrum. And so I think that's a really great point to make going

Speaker 4 6:17

Along with that. One thing that I found too, is that a lot of parents or teachers, and I think I've done the same thing. They, they wanna stop all this online stuff, come on, we gotta do it in person. You know, none of this , uh , you know, constantly trying to do stuff online will , again, there's a research article that interviewed people that were on and kind of ask them about this. And what they found was that it actually can be a lot easier for artistic individuals to have a relationship that's online because they have time to come up with responses to questions. Um, whereas in real time you don't always have that. You've got a couple of seconds at best, right ? And it also helped with working memory and functioning deficits. They had past conversations, all saved, so they could go back and refer to, okay, this is what we talked about last time. So this is what I can talk about again, you know, and things that I wouldn't even think about. So sometimes even doing stuff online or doing stuff different than normal, typical people would do is better for them. It really is, you know, or

Speaker 2 7:17

Us, it mean that it's gonna work for a nor diverse person. Great . I do. I can think of something and, and I don't know, surely in the work that you did, it was covered, but if not, then we could talk through what that looks like. I'm thinking, you know, you're , you're working with a family who the, their child is non-binary, or I do identifying with a different gender, but the parents are VE rice , very traditional labor , conservative. How do you help them kind of move along to understanding their

Speaker 4 7:51

Child? Okay. So, and this is something that , that I'm still, I'm still learning how to do, but, but what I've learned is , is I try to bring up , um, try to bring up values and how we , we all have different values and our values aren't bad. Our values are different, but our values aren't bad. Right ? And so you, as a parent , um, these are your values related to sexuality, or, you know, I'll have them tell me what their values are. And then I have the child talk about what their values are. And we try to have a conversation about how, just because these two value systems are different. Doesn't mean that it's bad . And a lot of times when a parent is getting upset , um, I've noticed that it comes from a place of fear. Sure . Um , and, and, and that's valid. And so I think also validating that, you know, when I hear you say a , B and C , sure . I , I hear that you're scared and you're scared because you love your child and that's wonderful. That's what we want. Yeah . And so then with a child, we can work on some of those safety strategies. If I'm gonna be meeting people, how do I do it safely? If , how do I know if I'm in a dangerous situation? How can I meet people in a way that's safe? Cause I'll tell you so many. So many of my clients are, are online dating because they want someone. And so they're going on Tinder, not realizing that they're better, safer ways,

Speaker 3 9:11

Right . To do. Right. And you know, you talked last time am about that whole idea of, you know, inappropriate sexual behavior versus unsafe sexual behavior. And I loved that. I loved learning that. And you also talked about, you had an online group that you didn't want to stop because they were meeting people and texting and, you know, forming relationships with people in the group. How, how is that going?

Speaker 4 9:35

I kind of had to stop. Oh , um, we took , we took a break and then , um, I start, I start new classes. Um, so I was trying to find a way to like give power back or give responsibility back. And, you know, you can plan an activity. Look, you saw me do it. And it was, it was really difficult , but we actually got to the point where one of my guys was able to plan a movie night. Um , good . And he was able to, he ne we had to , we had to make a checklist. Yeah . Who was gonna come? Where do they live? Like we had to explicitly do it, but we had a movie night and he, we all met at a theater. We watched in Canto. He loved it. He still talks about it. So I think, I think it's so beneficial. I think it just needs, they need more support than I think I initially thought, I thought, oh, I'll just teach the skill and they'll generalize. Okay . I should know better . That's not gonna , we need more time to generalize.

Speaker 3 10:34

Yeah , sure .

Speaker 2 10:35

Huge executive functioning piece to plan a whole gathering. So, you know, they can get it after some practice.

Speaker 4 10:42

Yes. Which I think is interesting too. You know, we, I think sometimes there's the assumption that they're lacking motivation also . So , and so doesn't wanna have friends, right . Or so who does this it ? And a , a lot of times when we see non-compliance quote unquote laziness, lack, it's none of those things, it's a deficit and executive functioning skills, which is neuro biological . Right . So, you know, but they're trying, they're trying , and

Speaker 3 11:06

It's not even fully formed until your early twenties and the neurotypical person, you know, so why do we expect that of a middle school or a high school or, or , you know, young adult with autism.

Speaker 4 11:16

Yeah .

Speaker 2 11:16

Who we know are gonna be one third , even very high functioning students with autism are going to be one third to two thirds socially. And that there's a connection to, you know, socialness and executive functioning, at least in terms of coordinating social events, you know? Right,

Speaker 4 11:33

Right. Completely.

Speaker 3 11:35

Gosh, this is so fascinating. Trisha. I could just talk to you all day. What, what other pieces of information or insight would you like to share with our listeners? And do you think is important for EV everybody to really understand,

Speaker 4 11:48

Y you know, you can look at your caseload and five to 10% of individuals on that caseload could be transgender. And so we're , we're now in this world where it's not, am I going to meet someone who is transgender? Right . It it's when, and, and you , as a clinician, they may not be choosing to come out or, or talk about the fact that they're nonbinary and they won't, if they don't think that they can trust

Speaker 3 12:12

You, if they don't feel safe .

Speaker 4 12:13

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so there's a really interesting , um, and again, I'll, I'll , I'll forward this to you, but , um, it's, it's like a checklist for you to check your , um, your privilege, but this is all related to cisgender privilege.

Speaker 3 12:29

So Trisha , you said cisgender, and , um, that means functioning the same gender as you were born, as you , you were given biologically, right? Yeah. And then transgender would be like to see informed us across genders. Yeah. And so , um, you know, is there a , is there a term, or is there something that we should use? I mean, like I said, in the beginning, you know, I didn't even know the difference between gender identity and sexual identity. And so, you know, is , is there something that we should be aware of when interacting with, or talking about people who are experiencing some of these issues?

Speaker 4 13:12

Yeah. So this, and again, I'm by no means an expert in, in the terminology, although I'm , I'm trying to be , um, but this is, this is what I, what I've learned from just talking to people is that everyone prefers something different. It's kind of the same with neurodiversity. Some people wanna be autism as autistic individual. Sometimes you just have to ask them. Sure. You know, what, what , what are your pronouns? What would you like me to call you? Sure. Um , because for everyone it's gonna be different. You know, someone may be may being referred to as a lesbian and some may not be, some people are very fine with the word and some people aren't. Right.

Speaker 3 13:48

So,

Speaker 4 13:48

Right.

Speaker 3 13:49

I ,

Speaker 4 13:49

I wish there was just one term I could use and no , I'm never gonna get it wrong because I'm such a perfectionist, but it's just ,

Speaker 3 13:55

But that's helpful, you know, that's really helpful. There is no one term that's like, quote unquote , politically. Correct. Um, and, and that's , yeah.

Speaker 2 14:03

And I think the thing about some of this is are you willing to yes . Um, learn and willing to adjust what you say to me, it's, it's similar. You know, my given name is little well , and it's been mispronounced a million times over, and there are a lot of people in the black community who have names that are mispronounced frequently, and nobody even tries to say it the right way. Right. You know, and I , it seems that if you at least ask, how should I pronounce that and then try to pronounce it the right way. That's you , nobody's gonna slap you on the hand because you got it wrong the first time, if you're making those corrections. And I think the same way with, if, if I didn't use the correct pronouns, if I didn't say it exactly the same wow way. But if you correct me and I say, oh great. I , I got it. They them , I can do that. Yeah . I mean, yeah . I wanna be able to do it, but I will tell you, my grammar keeps getting in the way,

Speaker 4 14:59

If my mom, the same way she was an English major and she's like, Trisha , I'm not trying to be offensive. I just I'm struggling with it.

Speaker 3 15:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm , I'm the same way. Um , I'm , I'm like you Trisha , you know, and I'm sure both of us are like, you, we don't wanna get it wrong. You know, we want to honor that person and, and whatever, however, they express themselves. So, you know, this has just been so fascinating and I cannot thank you enough for being on here again and, and exploring some of these kind of sensitive issues, timely issues, because, you know, like you said, it's not, if it's when and , um, when is here. And so I just want to learn as much as I can. And I thank you so much for all of these resources. I can't wait to go online and join some of these groups and get my continuing ed credits that way. That's a lot more interesting than doing, you know, in a student behavior consequence training or something like that. So it'll be fascinating.

Speaker 4 15:56

And so they actually have a , um , you know, we , you have like tech Abba in Texas and yeah . They have a , a sex Abba, so that's actually coming this Friday. And so it's two days of, of coursework just related to sexuality. And it , it is amazing. I

Speaker 3 16:14

Now is that the group that you told me to join on Facebook or follow on Facebook.

Speaker 4 16:19

Okay .

Speaker 3 16:19

Okay . Yeah. I saw that, that they've got some things coming up this weekend. That's really just fascinating. I , I , I just can't. Thank you enough.

Speaker 2 16:28

So I do think Susan and Trisha that some people who really listening to a podcast are gonna feel a little uncomfortable. It might even kind of rock their world to , to think about this because of maybe a traditional upbringing or whatever. Sure . You know, it's important and it's worth the work of figuring this out. And

Speaker 4 16:49

Yeah, and I think, I think in addition to that, this definitely goes along with the ethical codes that we have as BCBAs and that we need to be , um, culturally competent and culturally sensitive. Um , I , I went to a training and , and they talked about how this is a new culture, especially for, you know, gen Zers who are coming into contact with more, you know, gender nonconforming individuals. They need to have the right language to use , and they need to know how to work with individuals that are gender diverse. And so it's part of being culturally competent. I think

Speaker 2 17:21

It

Speaker 3 17:21

Is . I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree with both of you and , and listeners, you know, we apologize if it makes you uncomfortable, but it like, it is a current topic and it is timely. And so, you know, maybe you'll just think a little bit more about it.

Speaker 2 17:36

So we have a question, right, Susan.

Speaker 3 17:38

Yeah, we do. We do, you know, Trisha talked about the young client planning a movie night and how excited he was and how, you know, a lot of people assumed that people on the spectrum don't do things like that because they're lazy or they lack motivation. And the reality is they lack executive functioning, which is a neuro biological issue. And so I think it would be interesting for listeners to answer this question as well. So executive functioning is fully formed in a neurotypical person's brain, right around the early teens, the late teens, the early twenties, the late twenties or the early thirties.

Speaker 2 18:20

Alrighty. Well, I think a lot of people probably think that teenagers have executive functioning skills. Absolutely . They one have a job. They want , 'em Rob a car. They want 'em to take care of their homework.

Speaker 3 18:32

Yeah .

Speaker 2 18:32

Get all that together. Especially if you're about to go off to college, you need to be able to do all these things. And all of that requires executive functioning. But I know the answer is early twenties early sometimes even to mid twenties , right?

Speaker 3 18:48

Yeah , yeah. That, that's exactly what the literature tells us. And, you know, a good way to remember executive functioning is what does it take for an executive to function? Right. So executive has to have, he has to be able to have plans and be flexible with the plans and have goals and timelines and multitask and delegate and all of that. And so, yeah, I mean, I think we do assume at teenagers, you know, seniors in high school should have all these skills and they don't. And then you add on autism on top of that, it could be late twenties, early thirties before it's, you know, truly formed and utilized appropriately. You know, Nicholas has a , has a , he's got a great executive functioning skill . He does. He really does.

Speaker 2 19:32

He really has that together. I think of it as, and I think we've said this before. I think of it as this secretary in your brain. So whether that is the person who keeps all your files in order, I mean, or , you know, keeping all your files in order in brain, or even a secretary might say to a caller he's not available right now, which if you're the secretary in your brain, you were saying, could we talk about that later? Right. You're controlling some of those impulses as well. So absolutely. That's how I think of it. We, you know, one other piece of the conversation with Trisha that really stood out to me was the concept of the, of us understanding this. Because as a part of our ethics, we are to be culturally sensitive, be sensitive to those, you know, those parts of people's lives. And so from an ethical standpoint, yes , I think about this stuff.

Speaker 3 20:29

Yeah. And another term that she used was not only culturally sensitive, but also culturally competent. And this is a timely conversation because like we said, in the very beginning, I'm starting to see young girls and young men experience some of this , um , gender diversity and , um, make , make people uncomfortable, but it is definitely timely. So we hope you enjoy the shows, the episodes and come back week to listen to a story about a student at care , everybody .