It's About Dignity Part 1

Tricia Lund is a Houston area BCBA who is working with neurodiverse adults.  She works with her clients on some of the most fun and difficult things in life - relationships.  She is sure to get you thinking.  This is bound to be helpful, especially with the question at the end of the episode. Some may consider portions of the episode to be adult content.  There is nothing explicit, but we talk about adult issues.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

The content of this podcast is provided as general informational purposes. Only it is not intended for nor should it be used to replace professional behavior intervention and advice.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Some may consider today's topic to be adult content. There is absolutely nothing explicit in today's is recording, but we did want to let you know that Trisha's gonna talk to us about things that are important to

Speaker 3: 0:26

Adults.

Speaker 4: 0:27

This is sissy, and this is Susan and we are

Speaker 3: 0:30

Function. Junction behavior

Speaker 4: 0:32

Matters.

Speaker 3: 0:33

Behavior is very important and I am so excited to have Trisha L here with us today to talk to us. Uh, we go kind of maybe not way back, but we definitely go back ways.

Speaker 4: 0:47

Yeah, it's good to, you know, I don't know if our listeners know, but we, um, record these podcasts via zoom. So we get to see people's faces and it's so great, cuz I haven't seen Patricia in person despite COVID in several years and<affirmative> when you and I talked last, I was like, sissy, we've gotta have Trisha on the podcast because you know, I don't know if sissy mentioned this already to you, but you're probably one of the three best teachers I've ever worked with in 30 years. Oh yeah. Sissy talks about it a lot.

Speaker 3: 1:19

Oh yeah. I mean just amazed, you know, whatever needed to happen for the students was gonna happen<laugh> and it wasn't gonna happen with just you. It was gonna happen with whatever other staff members were in the room with whatever training they needed to have in order to be able to deliver that. And um, students made progress and they made progress and things that were important in their life too.

Speaker 5: 1:44

Yeah. So I actually saw, so there was a student I used to have and now I'm her B C B a in a group home. That's so exciting and it is exciting and sad because there's been so much progression. Um, just a lot of behaviors that we had extinguished are now back and now trying to train staff in that group home in Dayhab to,

Speaker 4: 2:10

Was it the student that was on a DRL for skin picking? Yeah. Oh wow. Well she is certainly blessed to have you. And I think SIS and I have actually talked about that. We did, um, DL on, uh, the podcast about, you know, she would work, she would set her own limits and you know, at the end of the day you think she got like this huge, big reinforcer. But if when I saw her last, she got like a condiment cup of, of Coca-Cola tiny,

Speaker 5: 2:40

Tiny. Yes. She was amazing. Yeah. Yeah.<affirmative>

Speaker 4: 2:45

So Trisha, tell us about yourself. What's what were you doing before? What are you doing now?

Speaker 5: 2:49

Okay. Uh, so, um, I used to be a, a teacher and I taught in a classroom for individuals that, uh, had autism, but couldn't really be included due to some of their behaviors and deficits. Um, and then I did a little stint in a clinic and I tried that out and I realized that the clinic wasn't, wasn't really my jam. I just didn't really, I think, fit into that. I didn't, I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy there. Um, and so then I started working with adults, um, in group homes and Dayhab. And so a lot of that, it was a combination of consulting with the group homes in the Dayhab about, Hey, this is how you should do things. And then also doing one on one stuff with clients. Um, and so now I own my own company where I do the same thing. Um, and then I<inaudible> oh yeah. Summit behavior consulting. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 3:42

Summit behavior consulting. Great. Do you have a

Speaker 5: 3:45

Uhhuh it's uh, www.summitbehaviorconsulting.com.

Speaker 4: 3:50

Awesome.

Speaker 5: 3:51

Thank you. Welcome. Um, so now I do the same thing. I, I consult with adults, um, and teenagers, and then I still are to doing, um, some social groups for individuals. Um, and that's mostly online and a lot of it is about how to, uh, how to form relationships, how to date, how to navigate that whole social world. Um, and then I'm finishing up a certification to be a nationally certified sex educator and that's through, um, it's called ASEC is the organization

Speaker 4: 4:24

Super, what does that stand for? Do you know?

Speaker 5: 4:26

Uh, yeah. American association of sex educators and therapists.

Speaker 4: 4:35

And last time you and I talked on the phone, I feel like you said something about the virtual social skills training that you were going to continue despite COVID, because of all the, tell me

Speaker 5: 4:46

About that. Oh yeah. Like, because of, of all the people that have been coming that I was saying, yeah. So it's been, so when COVID started, I, I just wanted to try doing some social groups online. Um, and so I, you know, they were off free and I just kind of tried to like fix the kinks and stuff. Um, and now, um, I, I do the same thing and I have like a certain theme and there's a certain time that we go, um, you know, maybe for six weeks or nine weeks. And, um, I've got clients from like all over Texas, which is really fun, you know, we've got people from Plano in Dallas and Sugarland and um, and so I feel like, I mean, yes in person is good, but I also feel like with virtual, they've been able to meet people in so many different places than they wouldn't normally be able to. And they're learning to maintain those friendships. One of my guys, um, he's so social and he got everyone's phone number and he's been texting this other girl and he initiates the texting and she responds and right. It, it, I don't know, it's, you can still have really good friendships even if they're not in person.

Speaker 4: 5:54

Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 5:55

Especially, especially for people with autism, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 5:58

And we've learned that right. I mean, over the past year and a half, we've<laugh> learned that really well. Um, that's super cool Trisha, what a neat story. Um, and, and how do parents access this? Do they sign up through your website?

Speaker 5: 6:15

Uh, yeah, so they can go, I saw on the website, I put different topics that I'm doing, cuz the topics sometimes change. Um, and so they can email me and um, then we can get people going and usually there's ways, especially if they're older, there's ways for us to, uh, navigate the, the payment. So they don't have to do private pay. They can find another way for it to be paid for. Oh. But I also do, I do a lot of free stuff too. Cause I feel like, I feel like there's so much need, especially with this population and with adults. And I mean, let's be honest, like at BC B working in a clinic can charge, I don't know how much an hour, like a lot of people don't have that amount of money to be able to spend for all this private stuff. So I try to do a lot of free stuff. Like the dating class I'm doing now is free. And then I have a whole bunch of free parent trainings, all about socio sexuality topics and how to navigate that. So even if you can't pay, visit the website, cause there's usually free stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 7:11

And I was going to attend one of the parent trainings and I feel like, completely forgot about it, but tell us about that. I love, love the title of it.

Speaker 5: 7:20

Uh, yeah, so it's, it's a whole series it's called love and disabilities. Um, and we do different topics. The one I'm doing today is about, um, uh, body image and disability acceptance. Um, there, all the stuff that I talk about is really geared towards a couple things. But the main thing is trying to, um, trying to, I guess really decrease and extinguish the sexual abuse that really happens with so many of our individuals with disabilities. And, and one thing that the research talks about is that if you have individuals, um, with disabilities who are treated different and who experience negative stigma all the time, obviously it's gonna impact their self-esteem when they have a negative self-esteem oftentimes they will continue to be in relationships. They're abusive because they feel like they're not gonna get anything else and victimizers look for victims. And so if our individuals have low self-esteem and see themselves as victims and not being empowered, that that is one factor that can you know, that

Speaker 4: 8:24

The training that you do on Fridays that is for parents, right?

Speaker 5: 8:27

Yeah. Yeah. Parents and teachers mm-hmm<affirmative>

Speaker 3: 8:30

Yeah. I think that's really interesting cuz we do a ton of training with parents and people who work with people with disabilities about protecting them. But the idea of teaching the person with a disability, how to self advocate and how to take care of themselves is extremely powerful.

Speaker 5: 8:48

Oh, it's huge. Yeah. There was um, one thing that I've been learning too. So for a while I was looking at, you know, individuals with disability, well, most specifically autism who, who are labeled as sex offenders, not because they were trying to engage in a behavior or it's called counterfeit deviance essentially. And so you have someone who looks like they might be a stalker, but, but they're not, they're an individual with autism, who's hyper focused on this particular or this particular activity. And so quite frankly, labeling them as a sex offender and putting them in jail and having them go to group therapy, those are all things that are never gonna work. And so you have all these people that are trying, you know, different things. But one of the things that comes up in the research and really needs to be looked at more is that one of the biggest things we can do for individuals autism is teach them how to have a friendship because they may not engage in some of these behaviors if they have a really fulfilling relationship with someone. And so there, there definitely is a tendency to, to focus on, you know, we teach sex ed kind of in a reactive way. Oh, well they did this in appropriate thing. Cool. All right. Let's, you know, teach them all the specifics about how to not when really what we should be doing from the beginning is really helping them to have friendships. Cause I think that's gonna, it's gonna stop a lot of this negative stuff. Honestly, I have

Speaker 4: 10:06

Had two students in the past, not so not so far away past, um, one, you know, he had a crush on a girl and she, they had a group project school and so they had exchanged phone numbers and he texted her 64 times that day. And the parent, um, went to the campus and the parent was cool and she understood and she didn't, you know, do anything. But unfortunately in another situation, a young man was putting a girl's picture on his YouTube. I mean his, um, Facebook page, their social media, and really kind of was scary to the girl and she did press charges and he did end up in juvenile detention. Um, and so, you know, you're so right. I mean, we really do need to be more proactive about what we're teaching kids because when they leave us, they're not under the protection of public school anymore. Right. And so then, oh,

Speaker 5: 11:02

And it's awful. It is awful. I've had clients in jail and let me tell you it, we, we, I was making the assumption, oh yeah. Things are getting so much better. You know, now cops are being trained and blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, no, not every cop is trained. And if you have a cop that hasn't necessarily been trained or doesn't have those same values as the great cops that we see, you know, on the news, you still have an individual with a disability in jail. And let me tell you, even if it's just 24 hours, that can be, that's very scary for that.

Speaker 4: 11:33

You know? I mean, I would imagine it, it results in some PTSD as well.

Speaker 5: 11:38

Oh completely. Yes. Yeah. And

Speaker 3: 11:40

One of the things that you said that I think we say frequently about almost anything and why wouldn't understanding relationships and sexuality and all that be the way to go is teach them what to do. Don't be telling them what to not do. Don't text the girl 64 times don't, you know, whatever it is, teach,'em what to do. Yes. Develop a friendship and then some friendships develop into other things. And this is the process for that. Yeah. I, I love that idea. Does it scare people? Does it scare parents away a little bit a night when it's called sex ed<laugh>

Speaker 5: 12:15

Yeah. I was talking to Susan about that. I, I need, I don't, I need to find different names, I think, but I'm also trying to be super honest about this is what I'm teaching. You know, I'm gonna teach a class about porn, that's it? Okay. The class is about pornography. I mean, I don't wanna what, it's not cuz then you're gonna come in and be like, why is she talking about pornography? Sure.

Speaker 3: 12:37

So, because it's an issue<laugh>, we're talking about pornography. Cause people on the spectrum can easily develop interests that they, that become all consuming. And so you have to figure out how to respond to that all consuming interest, particularly if it is pornography

Speaker 5: 12:57

And right. And do and do it in a safe way. Yes, of

Speaker 4: 12:59

Course. Um, we had a young man who was in doing that and of course he's very bright. And so they took away his ID, his ability to access the internet and the computer, the library computers, so that he started volunteering in the life skills classroom. And he took those life skills students, their ID numbers. And it looked like those kids were accessing porn on the computer. I mean, this kid could break through any, anything, any firewall, any firewall. And so he was ready to graduate and we had kind of tried to, um, have the administrators consider not graduating, but of course the administrators were like, are you kidding me? Oh yeah, he's graduating. And then not too long after that, he was, um, busted for, um, setting fire to a public storage unit and then he was in jail and I don't know where he is now. It's been several years. But the reason that he did that is because his friends quote a and told him to, so, you know, it, it, it, it can really have tragic con consequences when you don't address it in a serious way, you know?

Speaker 5: 14:08

Right. Yeah. I feel like one thing that I've learned in, in my sexuality classes is that there, there really is no inappropriate side behavior there. There's not. Um, and at, at least in, at least in the classes that I've looked at, everything can be considered very, very normal. It's where it happens. It's when it happens and it's who it happens with. And so I, I know that everyone has different, I think, values related to like pornography masturbation and all that. But, but when, when it comes down to it, there are safe ways to look at porn. There's ethical porn that's being made and you can educate people about how to be ethical and responsible about their porn use, I think.

Speaker 3: 14:52

Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I hear what you're saying. Absolutely. Because the thing, whether you're a person on the spectrum or a person with adult mental disabilities in whatever that looks like, the one thing that tends to stick and stay just like everybody else is the desire for sexuality and, you know, are we just going to say no, no, no. Are we going to find a safe and healthy way for them to meet that need? Right.

Speaker 4: 15:22

Right. You know, it kind of goes back Sisi and I were talking earlier and I was doing a training yesterday and I talked a little bit about the neurology of autism. And then I was talking into this, the teachers and people about changing behavior. And I said, you can't change neurology, but you can't change behavior. Right. And so I love what you're doing because you're not trying to change neurology, but you're changing behavior so that it's safe and ethical. And I think, you know, that's such an important thing. Tell us about your work with neuro neurodiversity. I know you've been really doing a lot of research in that as well.

Speaker 5: 15:56

Yeah. So, um, looking back at when I was in different, doing different things in clinics, um, there was sometimes when I would do things and I didn't necessarily feel comfortable. I, there, there wasn't abuse that was happening for sure. Sure. Of course. But, but I also felt like we were focused so much on turning certain individuals into what, what we thought as normal. When I, I have to ask myself, um, how that impacted the client, how he now views himself, whether or not we've actually increased his quality life and, and his happiness. And, and maybe we have, maybe we haven't, I don't know. I don't, I'm not in contact with this client, but when, when I do my stuff, especially my social groups, um, I guess I don't love the idea of constantly talking about deficits and this is what normal people do. And this is a, you know, let's success is if you can be super typical, that's what we're looking for. That's success, you know? And, and there, you know, CIY, and I were talking about, there's definitely behaviors that whether you are a neurodiverse or neurotypical, there are some behaviors you just can't do, you know, when, when it's dangerous. Um, but there are some things that I think the general population needs to be a little bit more tolerant of. So like for instance, um, I have a, I have a client right now and she, she does a lot of stemming, um, verbal stemming, and a lot of it's very negative. You know, she'll tell herself, no, don't stop. Don't do that. Remember what you're earning, you know, little things like that. Um, and at the day, she's that they find it very distressing. They, they don't necessarily like that she's doing it. And so they want me to try to extinguish it well there now, thankfully more research is being done where clinicians are talking to people with autism and saying, Hey, can you explain to us why you do these different things? Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and there's this great. I have it right here. There's this great resource, um, where they were asking individuals with autism, Hey, why, what, what are you getting? What are you getting from this verbal stemming? So it's called people should be allowed to do what they like, autistic adults, viewing autistic adults views and the experiences of stemming. Um, and, and they, they talk about in there. How, um, a lot of times the verbal stemming is a way for them to deal with the anxiety that they have. Um, mm-hmm<affirmative> and, and that's what helps them process. And so, well, that's

Speaker 4: 18:23

What stemming is. It's result of overstimulation or, and under stimulation, but you know, what concerns me out that, I mean, what I, what I hear about that kind of thing. I hear teachers say it all the time. I think he's talking, I think he has voices in his head. I think he's schizophrenic because they're verbally stemming. Right. They're verbally just stemming. And, you know, I see it all the time. Like, I've got a kid who's into Mickey's Playhouse and to repeat Nikki's Playhouse. And they're like, I think she's got voices that she's talking to. No, she's just stemming, you know, just like a kid who rocks and just like a kid who hand flaps, they are just stemming. I stem. Yes. You know, I rub the, my thumb fingernail. That's just how I do. It's just a thing. It's so that's not hurting anybody.

Speaker 5: 19:08

Right.

Speaker 3: 19:10

Well, and when you talk about that, it makes me think about a tenant that we are supposed to think about and is it socially relevant? Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and so not socially relevant from my perspective of what is right or wrong, but what's important to the client. What's important to the person and to, to completely negate this thing that helps regulate them is not socially relevant. You have to find a, if you don't want'em to do that, you need to help them find a way that helps them regulate. Right. That's less offensive, offensive to who<laugh>, you know? Right. Anyway. Right.

Speaker 4: 19:48

And the other thing, you know, that I think about when you talk about different people who have worked with different clients that you work with, you're never gonna be typical if you're on the spectrum, because it's a neurological difference. And like I said, minute ago, you can't change neurology. Right. And so, you know, with, to see, I've probably talked about this on this last 10 podcasts, is that it's about autism accept. Yes. Right. We live in a neurodiverse world. People with autism are one in 45 in the United States, adults with autism are 18 plus or one in 45, according to the CDC report that came out in may of 2020. So no, you don't have to be typical. It's okay to atypical. It's okay. Because that's the world we live in right now and it's time.

Speaker 5: 20:37

And so I feel like, I think a lot of it is also people learning to be just more understanding and more tolerant, you know, is this a big deal? Is, is this girl sitting next to me saying, no, don't do that. Is it really stopping me from being happy, doing my job? You know, I, I just feel like, I feel like sometimes we get really nitpicky about stuff and, and there's a tendency to think because I'm a behavior analyst and because I can write a behavior plan and I have all these really cool strategies, I can just, I can, I can manage all of this. We can manage all that behavior, but should we,

Speaker 3: 21:15

Should we, you know, yeah. To what degree mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you know, to the degree that it is invade their ability to do things they want to do. I want a job at home Depot. Maybe I have to manage some of that, but then maybe if it, if it's this, the vocal stem kind of thing, then, then I put it on the schedule. We talked about that. And another podcast is if you need it, let's put it on your schedule. But when you're out there loading the shelves just don't do it out there. You know, mm-hmm<affirmative>, mm-hmm<affirmative>.

Speaker 4: 21:49

Yeah. And, and makes me wonder too, where has that client heard that before?

Speaker 5: 21:55

Right.

Speaker 3: 21:56

That didn't come from their own head. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 21:58

Right. Exactly. She's really repeating Dayhab staff. So, you know, so there's some training on the staff too, you know, for sure. And I think, I think that's the thing that I really like about working with adults.

Speaker 3: 22:12

We'll pick back up with Trisha next week. So Susan Trisha is just an amazing human being and I so enjoyed listening to her. Uh, she really makes you think about some things that I think probably a lot of people don't necessarily think about, but are important and critical issues for people with

Speaker 4: 22:31

Disabilities. Yeah. Um, I don't think at the time of our interview, I had attended her class, but she has free parenting classes on Fridays. And I attended one, um, that week and I learned so much, I learned things like, you know, so many times when we write report words about sexual behavior, we write it as inappropriate sexual behavior and she made some good point in our, our podcast of recording. And, you know, I think the better option is to call it unsafe. Yeah. Sexual behavior, you know, again, like she said, it depends on where and with whom and under what conditions that makes it unsafe, not necessarily inappropriate are so, so I learned that and I just learned so much and I, I, I enjoyed the class because there were parents there, there was a, um, adult services, um, employer there from her area. And it, it was just really great. I encourage any of you if your parents, or if you're just interested in more, take a look at Trista's website and up for one of her free classes. Cause I think you'll really like it and learn a lot. So yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:35

Yeah. And we have, we have a question related to our conversation with her. Trisha spoke a lot about ethics with regard to making people do things they don't want to do. And with regard to addressing sexual behavior, the B, C B described the fundamental questions of ethical practice. And here are some, you will have to decide which ones are fundamental questions of ethical practice, a what is the right thing to do? Okay. B what does the client or student or parent want?

Speaker 4: 24:10

Okay.

Speaker 3: 24:12

C what is worth doing mm-hmm<affirmative> D what does it mean to be a good behavior analyst? Mm-hmm<affirmative> E a C and D right.

Speaker 4: 24:28

Well, let's look at this. So the, there are three fundamental questions of ethical practice and a, what is the right thing to do is a, a fundamental question I'll skip around here. C was it, what is worth doing, which is also a fundamental, ethical question. D what does it mean to be a good behavior? Analyst is also an, a fundamental question. And B what does the client or student or parent want? You know, that's, that's a really important thing to consider with regard to social validity. Um, interestingly, it is not one of the three fundamental questions of ethics,

Speaker 3: 25:06

Right? I mean, I guess to a degree, what is the right thing to do should include the part of social validity, but, um, it's, yeah. It's not one of the fundamental questions for whether it's ethical or not. Um, I also do think that if you're taking a test and you're looking at some of those questions, we do sometimes say, what is ethical might not always feel right. You know, we say that sometimes, but, you know, you ask yourself what is ethical for ins, like, for instance, the, what is worth doing? Yeah. You know, are you going to, um, layer thing upon thing, upon thing, because you consider a important, or someone considers it important, and yet it's not really achievable, so is it really worth doing

Speaker 4: 25:55

Sure, sure, sure. You know, I, I mean, that's really kind of pertains to Trisha too, because she had some of the really tough kids in the school district and, you know, she could do, I think you mentioned this, maybe not, but she could do a, to any second fixed, uh, interval reinforcement schedule, but you know, who else in the world<laugh>, you know, in the real world where that student was gonna live could do that. And so, yeah, it was, it was great that she did it, but, you know,

Speaker 3: 26:24

And it shaped behavior, you know, it shaped behavior to a point that people could do the reinforcement schedule for the kiddo yeah. Was in the beginning, you're looking at it thinking, I hope this is gonna move because are we gonna be able to continue this? Yeah. So, and, and we do think about what does it mean to be a good behavior analyst? Oh yeah. Certainly being ethical<laugh> is a part of being a good behavior analyst.

Speaker 4: 26:50

Yeah. I, uh, I, um, I think I've mentioned several times that I'm teaching some graduate courses in applied behavior analysis. My taught ethics course a while back. And I was really, really shocked at some of the ethical dilemmas that some of the current students were facing in different clinics and things. Um, mostly they mentioned, um, insurance fraud, which, oh my gosh. Yeah. So it was scary, but it, it is definitely something that according to my students is happening. So going back to that question, um, the right answer, correct answer would be E a C N D. Not that B isn't important, but it is not included in the fundamental questions of ethics, according to the BACB the behavior analyst certification board. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:36

And I would say our friend Trisha is at the top of oh yeah. I mean, she definitely thinks about what's, you know, what is the right thing to do? What is worth doing and what does mean to be a good behavior analyst? You know, some of what she's doing are things that other people might consider important, but might say, let's call that not worth doing so I don't have to do it, or

Speaker 4: 28:00

Yeah. Or out of their comfort zone. So yes. Maybe it's not worth doing, but yeah, she's doing some important stuff and I really want her to do great. And I hope that she can expand her audience, you know, so that more and more people can gain the information that she shared. And like I said, I've been doing this for 30 years and I learned some new things, so it was pretty cool. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:18

Yeah. She's amazing. Thank you guys, uh, for being with us today. Yes. Listening and I hope you took away some good information that E even if it's not something that applies to your life, it might make you think differently about people with disabilities.

Speaker 4: 28:35

Absolutely. Absolutely. Our world is changing with regard to attitudes and, and, um, acceptance. And I know I said that every time, but it's very important. So as always, you guys thank you so much, please like subscribe, share, or comment on any social media platform or as always, you can wait and review us on the podcast app that you're using. We hope you have a fabulous weekend and we look forward to talking with you soon.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Yep. Come back next Friday.

Speaker 4: 29:04

Yes. Thanks. Take care. Have a baby. Have a good weekend.