Function Junction:Behavior Matters
Dr. Susan Catlett and Cissy Carter, both Board Certified Behavior Analysts, discuss practical solutions to behavior challenges that they have experienced in the many years they have consulted to schools and families regarding individuals with disabilities.
Function Junction:Behavior Matters
Gender Identity & Expression Differences for Individuals With Autism Part 1
Tricia Lund, a Houston BCBA, returns to talk about gender identity and expression differences in individuals with autism. She has studied a great deal in the area as well as trauma informed care. You are sure to be moved by the respect with which she talks about topics that are frequently not addressed for many people with disabilities. Stay for the question and come back next week for Part 2.
The content of this podcast is provided as general informational purposes. Only it is not intended for nor should it be used to replace professional behavior intervention and advice.
Speaker 2:This is sissy, and this is Susan and we are function. Junction behavior matters. It does, it does matter. And sissy, I'm so excited to have our friend Trisha Lu back on the podcast. Um, I reached out to her because I have a couple of students who are experiencing identity issues and I asked Trisha if she would be comfortable talking about that. And she asked me a question that made me realize how very uninformed I am on the topic, because she said she asked, um, is it sexual or gender identity? And I thought, well, I think it's gender, but I don't really know. So welcome Trisha. Thanks for coming back again. Thank
Speaker 3:You. You're
Speaker 2:Welcome, Trisha. I wonder if you could enlighten us a little bit. Um, when I started doing a little bit of, of research, um, on it, uh, the source that I looked at said that sexual identity issues are six times more common in girls with autism than typically developing girls. And I was wondering if you had read that and if you just have any information to enlighten us on understanding this issue a little bit better.
Speaker 3:Um, so first when it comes to definitions, we can kind of like break down, uh, you know, gender identity versus sexuality and stuff like that. So there's a resource that I can send to you guys. Well, there's two, there's one called the genderbread person. And then there's one called, um, L G B T unicorn or trans unicorn or something. But essentially what it does is it breaks down the concept of gender, into all of these different parts. And so one part is you have biological sex. And so those are the, the physical sex characteristics that you were born with, someone who has a vulva versus someone who has a penis. Um, and those don't necessarily change unless you're gonna have some sort of surgery to change it. And then you have gender identity and that's your internal view of your gender. So you could have a penis, but you could, your gender identity could be female because that's how you see yourself. So gender identity is all internal. You could also dress like most, um, typical men may dress, but you view yourself as female. Um, and then you have gender expression. And so that's how you commune your gender or your internal feelings to other people through clothing, makeup, mannerisms, hair, voice, pitch, all that good stuff. And then you have sexual orientation. And so this, you can actually break down into two things. So sexual orientation is who you want to have sex with, and that's a actually different from romantic attraction. So there's two different things. So you can be romantically attracted to one gender, but sexually attracted to another gender. Which, and I know when I first started reading about all this, I was so confused because I think I grew up in a very like binary world. Like there's there, there is black and white, you know, and there also, I didn't, I don't think I ever really understood the difference between, um, being sexually attracted to someone versus being romantically, attracted to someone. But there, there is a difference. And can
Speaker 2:I ask you to go back real quick? What did you say that I heard the genderbread, but what was the unicorn
Speaker 3:It's called the gender unicorn.
Speaker 2:The gender unicorn. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, it's and it's a good visual, I think even, uh, just, I think for layperson to see all of the different stuff that goes into gender, and it's not as, you know, binary as we may think it is. And
Speaker 2:Then you said there was another one, something about the gender bread
Speaker 3:Gender. Uh, so the gender bread came first. Um, and then it was updated and the newest one is the gender unicorn.
Speaker 2:Oh, gotcha. Okay.
Speaker 3:That makes I, I like both of them, so.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, thank you. So yes, there is a big difference. Um, obviously, and so in terms of, you know, people on the spectrum, what are you seeing? What are you finding in your research with regard to prevalence and things like that of, of people who are experiencing these issues?
Speaker 3:Uh, first of all, in general, autistic individuals, they're more likely to be gender variant, meaning that they're more likely to identify as being non-binary or, or gender nonconforming or transgender. So in general, you're gonna see those more in autistic individuals.
Speaker 2:And why do you think that is Trisha?
Speaker 3:So it's interesting. I was going back over it before meeting with you guys, cuz I I'd read some things, but I wanted to make sure I got it correct there. They're not sure. So there's some different theories. So one of them is that just in general, autistic individuals are a little bit more honest with regards to their internal feelings because they don't always know, uh, you know, when to filter or whether to filter or maybe it's not valuable to them to filter. And so they're more likely to be honest in their gender expression. Sure. That
Speaker 2:Makes sense.
Speaker 3:And then, um, there's also the theory that individuals are less likely to be constrained by social rules.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:They all women do this and they're Nope, that's not true. So they're just more likely to not, uh, kind of go based off of what everyone else is doing. Um, and then there's also a theory that they're more likely to be, um, honest about their internal experiences. Okay. We kinda went back to that. There's another theory that they have Def because of the deficits they have in social communication, they're less knowledgeable about gender norms in general.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure.
Speaker 3:And I did read a book and this was by autistic individuals who were transgender and I liked it because it wasn't researchers thinking about, oh, I wonder, you know, what this population thinks about it. It was them explaining, this is what I think. And even there, there was a difference, you know, some people believed in this theory and some people didn't believe in that theory. So there, there still love the question. What was the book
Speaker 2:With the people on the spectrum, by the people on the spectrum?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is called trans and autistic.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 4:We heard a couple of episodes ago, a person on TikTok who's non-binary and they said something pretty profound that you don't have to get it to be kind,
Speaker 2:Which I am. I just absolutely love that. Trisha. That's gonna be our motto for 2022 in the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So as a, you know, as a raised similarly to you, Trisha, where it was pretty binary in my life, that was new and different for me to think about. I, I don't have to have experienced it or, or really know someone who's experienced it in order to be able to say, oh, it is different for you and that's okay.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, and that's why I think it's so important for behavior analysts in particular, to be trauma informed just because you haven't gone through it doesn't mean that it's not valid for someone else. Um, and it's, it's really interesting. I have a couple clients now who do identify as non-binary and some of them have come out to their family and some of them haven't, but for tho well, in both situations, we have to try to find a way to navigate what are the family values versus what are your values?
Speaker 2:So I think that's really, you said that it's important for us to be trauma informed and where can we get more information to become more trauma informed?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So a couple sources. So one of them is Camil Colu. So Camil is C a M I L L E. And the last name is Colu, K O L U. And she is kind of the one that's pioneered this of being a trauma informed behavior analyst. OK. And she has got a lot of trainings that I can also send a link to you.
Speaker 2:I would love that.
Speaker 3:But yeah, so she's got a lot, but one thing that I've also learned too, if you're gonna be trauma informed is that you have to read personal experiences. You have to go read accounts and blogs and talk to people who are neuro and who are gender diverse, because they are gonna be able to tell you specifically about the trauma that they've gone through, you know, and you, and I may not think about
Speaker 2:That. Right. Well, and I know, you know, C and I have talked with a lot of our school districts and a lot of them are dealing with a lot of trauma, uh, informed, um, issues with kid on the spectrum just because of COVID.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. It's crazy. Even just, you know, and when we think of trauma, we tend to think of, you know, war or famine, but there's evidence to show that even the little minor traumas that we experience well, minor quote unquote, um, are huge, especially if it's daily. And if you think about, um, narrow, diverse people, they are experiencing trauma daily because they're in a place that doesn't always understand their needs. Right. Doesn't meet their needs. Sometimes says that their needs are invalid. Right. How traumatic is that? Right. You know?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And even in a circumstance where you're trying to meet their needs, if you, you don't communicate well and you're not feeling well, there's trauma there. Even when people are trying to help you, because you had a need that needed to be met, but it wasn't met, even though people may have cared very much to meet the need. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I have a student who is in middle school and she is depressed and has some suicidal ideations and she just sleeps all day at school. And I, you know, I'm struggling with knowing what to do and how to help her. And so do you have any, any ideas or thoughts on a student like that?
Speaker 3:So when it, first of all, when it comes to girls, girls are more likely to feel distress about being gender variant. So presenting differently than they feel or differently from everyone else feels that they should be. So they're usually more distressed about that than people who identify as male. So I, cuz I was trying to find, we'll do more girls experience being gender diverse versus guys. And there's, I mean, statistics are everywhere depending on, you know, but, but one thing that I did find in general was that really girls experience more anxiety and depression about that. And so I think that's where you start is, is focusing on that, the anxiety and depression. So there's a really interesting, it's a research article that was done by the Trevor project. And so they're an organization that works with LGBTQ plus individuals and they did a study.
Speaker 2:And let me, I, let me interrupt you really quick. Is it Trevor T R E V O R.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so they wanted to see, they were looking at suicidality, um, among LGBTQ plus individuals and they found one of the best ways to, um, decrease the, the suicide attempts for individuals that were LGBTQ was to have at least one accepting adult if they had one accepting all in their life, the suicidality decreased by 40%.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's, that's key. That's so important. Um, I had, I had talked to a friend of mine and he suggested calling the mantra center here in Houston to maybe see if we could find someone to come out and talk to the campus or something like that. But yeah, I mean, I think that she, she has, I think one of her teachers is very accepting, but I think she there's a lot going on. I think there's a lot going on at home with her mom kind of not really taking it very seriously and kind of trying to be her pal and her buddy versus getting her actual like counseling help, you know? Yeah. So
Speaker 3:I think too some, and I'm not saying that this is the case with, with where you're at, but some, some individuals don't feel safe at home. And so even if they're safe per even if they have that one safe person, if you are still expected to go home to a place where you don't feel safe or valued or cared about, you know, that's, that's gonna do a lot. So a couple of things that I found too, were there was a really great article that looked at, um, they were trying to find how to do groups, how to do like a, a group therapy or not, not just therapy, but you know, even something led in the school setting for individuals that were autistic stick and gender diverse. So what they did is they wanted to hear from individuals that were neurodiverse and gender diverse in order to see, Hey, is this working what needs to be done better? And they found a couple things. One thing they found is that usually parents need their own group because parents need to find a way to ask these questions and not necess necessarily asking their child these questions. Cuz I think sometimes the questions can come off as maybe a little bit judgemental about the meaning to be so making sure that the parents have a way to feel supported. Yeah. You know, in that journey,
Speaker 4:You know, having a child with a disability has its own fair share of things to work through as a parent. And you've worked through this thing and suppose you come from a fairly strict binary thinking background and now you have this new thing that you have to work through and be able to say, oh, well, you know, you've done the other, you can do this, you can do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, and I know there's also a lot of grief involved with families and, and when they get the diagnosis and you know, I would think that they, you know, when this kind of thing comes up, it kind of starts that whole grief process over again. You know, but Trisha, I was gonna ask you, do you do anything other than read research?
Speaker 3:You know, so it's funny. I was thinking about that the other day, trying to find out, you know, what makes me happy cuz I love my job, but then there are parts that really frustrate me. I love reading research that is by autistic individuals. And I recently found it's a journal called autism in adulthood and it is amazing because it's still, it's still researched. It's all that stuff that behavior analyst love, but it is it's specifically by autistic individuals and they they've gotta be on that research team. You know, it's not just a bunch of BCBAs thinking, we're gonna show the world how to work with autistic people. Um, so that's where most of these things come from.
Speaker 2:That's super cool. That's that? I'm gonna look into that for sure. So, you know, you talked about gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, and then you talked about something else,
Speaker 3:The sexual being sexually attracted versus romantically attractive.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. And so when you, you know, do you have any clients that you work with right now that are going through any of these things?
Speaker 3:Yes. And this is what I'm finding. I get so excited. Well, first of all, let me say that. If so I, I have completed all my coursework to be an ASEC certified sexuality educator. So that's a national certification and I
Speaker 2:Would say what that stands for,
Speaker 3:Uh, American association of valley educators, counselors and therapists.
Speaker 2:Okay. And so
Speaker 3:I, oh, almost. So I just have to put in, I have to get some paperwork together and send it all off and a nice little fee or something. Um, but I will tell you if I don't think I would know how to handle a lot of these situations if I hadn't taken that, that coursework. And so that's what, that was one thing I was gonna say too, you know, if you, if people are interested in helping, I would highly recommend going to trainings about how to work with LGBTQ individuals. And I would recommend going to some that are actually by L D LGBTQ individuals. And there there's two that I was gonna tell you about that. I love so one, um, it's called empowered to center for sexuality and they provide a lot of really great training, not just on the gender diversity side, but also on how to work with now diverse individuals and the guy who owns the company has really cool stuff using role playing games. And he's found that using role playing games is actually a really good way for some individuals to try on different personas. And so, so for instance, I had a client who I thought he was non-binary, but wasn't really sure he wanted to kind of ex he wanted to try different things, wanted to try makeup and hair and, and clothes, but he was nervous about how to do that. And of course his mom was super nervous about how to do that. And so I recommended you can go onto this online format, you, you know, Dungeons and dragons or whatever it is and build a character that you wanna try and, and try that character. And it's an place I don't think he's done it yet, but I, but I do. But I think that that is a really cool idea.
Speaker 2:That's you? That's a great idea. And so with the empowered, the center for sexuality, do you get your continuing education credits there or, oh, you do B, B, C B.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So do I, it's cool. Cause I can get, I can get my BC B and then I can get the certification for the, the sexuality educator stuff. Um, and there's one, one more, I'm gonna tell you about it's called upswing advocates and it's the same thing. They have trainings and it's related to neurodiverse and gender diverse. And there's one word, but I can't remember the name, but I'm gonna send it to you.
Speaker 2:I know you will. And I'm so looking forward to learning more, I'm gonna join both of those groups because you know, I remember when the team was kind of presenting the cases to me, I kind of, I said, you know, I knew it was coming. I just didn't know when and it's here. And you know, we talk a lot about autism acceptance and moving away from autism awareness. And now I think we need to look at this whole piece as an, as a level of acceptance and like sissy said, and I just absolutely love it. You know, you don't have to get it to be kind, but the thing is for me is I want to get it, you know, I want to understand. Yeah. You know, so I appreciate God. This is just so interesting God to see. I just learned so much when we talked to Trisha, I, I just, I wanna just take notes. I did. I took, filled out like 14 post notes while she was talking. It was just so interesting. And I know our listeners are gonna look word to part two after hearing part one,
Speaker 4:You know, she is such a powerhouse of knowledge, But the other thing that it comes through so strongly with her is the level of care and dignity that she expects people with disabilities to be treated with. You know, I mean, I love it. He's awesome.
Speaker 2:I love it. I was just talking to a colleague today at work about being more trauma informed. And I said, if you want to have of anybody come and present for you, this would be your gal. You know, cuz she's just, oh my gosh, there's so much. I don't know. You know, and I just right. I wanna learn so much more and I'm good to join those organizations. And anyway, it was just a great, great interview. Part two is a great interview as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. She's really just so interesting to listen to fun, to listen, to inspiring, to listen to
Speaker 2:Very much so. So I have a question. Would you like to hear it?
Speaker 4:Yes, I would.
Speaker 2:All right. Um, people with autism have a higher likelihood to be different with their gender expression, all but true are the following reasons a they're more honest about their internal experiences. B they're less likely to follow social norms. C they really care what other people or D they're less knowledgeable about gender norms?
Speaker 4:Well, they are more likely to be very honest about what's going on. They'll tell you what they're thinking. They'll tell you what they're feeling so that one's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And they, you know, our social norms are not necessarily the social norms for people on spectrum.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's what makes autism kind of its own culture as Gary Bebo used to say.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right. So the one about caring, what other people think.
Speaker 2:Okay. So yeah. So, you know, they really care about how people think, and I tell teachers all the time, social praise is great for some kids, but for kids with autism, they don't really care if you're happy. So I think that might be false. And then the fourth one is they're less knowledgeable about gender norms.
Speaker 4:So the less knowledgeable about gender norms is it makes it easier for them to not feel pegged. Right. If you're thinking about that as a reason is probably true. And the one that is not true is caring about people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that that her point was that, you know, gender norms, aren't really something that's important to them. Right. Because they don't really care what other people think. And they're not really much into conforming to our social norms. They're less likely to follow social norms. So with that being said, then they would be less knowledgeable about gender norms because that's not something that they are going to do a lot of research about.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And probably gender norms are probably those part of a hidden curriculum piece too. Right. Maybe, I mean, you know, we totally, we learned those incidentally over time. Totally.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 4:Totally, they're not necessarily direct talk. So maybe a lot of kids on the spectrum wouldn't know those
Speaker 2:Things. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then it makes sense that they wouldn't follow them. And it makes sense that they're more important and, uh, honest about their internal experiences. But I think the one we can rule out is that really care about other people, what other people think. And I would say that one is untrue.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think they care about what some people think. Yes. But I don't think it outranks what they think.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I admire about people on the spectrum.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. Me too well Cy. Thanks. Um, thanks so much. This was a great interview and a good question. And I think that people are gonna be really, um, inspired and, and, and more informed after part two. So have a great weekend everybody. And we will follow up next week with part two of our interview with Trisha land, take care, have a great weekend. Bye.