Function Junction:Behavior Matters
Dr. Susan Catlett and Cissy Carter, both Board Certified Behavior Analysts, discuss practical solutions to behavior challenges that they have experienced in the many years they have consulted to schools and families regarding individuals with disabilities.
Function Junction:Behavior Matters
It's About Dignity Part 2
Here is the second part of our talk with Tricia Lund. She is bound to make you think about adults with disabilities and how they should be able to make decisions about their own lives. Tricia talked about Dave Hingsburger and how much she appreciates what she has learned from his teaching. We recorded this episode before July 18, 2021, the day he died. We express our deepest condolences to all who cared for him. His work will continue through people like Tricia and others who understand that a disability does change the need and desire to have choices and a life well lived.
The content of this podcast is provided as general informational purposes. Only it is not intended for nor should it be used to replace professional behavior intervention and advice.
Speaker 2:Some may consider today's topic to be adult content. There is absolutely nothing explicit in today's recording, but we did want to let you know that Trisha's gonna talk to us about things that are important to
Speaker 3:Adults. This is sissy, and this is Susan and we are function junction behavior
Speaker 4:Matters.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the second part of our conversation with Trisha L at BC B a, who works with adults with disabilities. And I think,
Speaker 5:I think that's the thing that I really like about working with adults. I think that you just have to look at things so, so differently because they are people. So many of them are their own guardians and they're able to, they're able to make their own choices or they should be at least, and we should be doing what we can to honor that. Um, so Dave Heer who I think is amazing when it comes to like disab, disability rights and, and sexuality. Um, he has, um, he has an organization. I can't remember the name of it right now, where he does all of his really great training specifically for group homes and really talking about, um, adults with disabilities in their rights. And so he said a couple things on there that I love. One thing he said is, uh, there's, there's a, a meme. There's a picture. It's an individual that has a disability. And next to it, it says you don't call it challenging behavior when you get upset.
Speaker 4:Right. Exactly. Tell me the man's name again. And can you spell
Speaker 5:His last name? Yeah. So David Hanker H I N G S B U R G E R.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's exact you're right. Um, and we all do get upset, you know, we all do, um, scream and I don't know. I mean, I get, do people get upset
Speaker 3:In different ways? Sure. We talk about when, if you're, if you went to the doctor's office and the doctor says, well, we're gonna need to do a biopsy in this very uncle comfortable place. You might say, we're not doing that today.<laugh> in fact, I'm gonna need some time to think about that biopsy that you wanna do. If that doctor called the nurse in there and strapped you down, tried to strap you down on the table, the behaviors you would see from me would be very similar to some of the behaviors you see from people with disabilities. When we try to them to do what we think is important, right. Respect right. Is important. I just do have to ask you this. If 10 years ago, someone had told you, you were gonna be talking about sexuality and people with disability. Do you think you would've said, oh yes, of course.
Speaker 5:You know, probably not. I mean, I, I always knew that I loved working with, with, and so that's something that comes with it, but I, I don't, I, I think if you were to tell me, Trisha, you're gonna be teaching a class about pornography, or, you know, you've got a guy in a group home down there and you're gonna have to teach him how to to completion. No, I don't think that anyone would've ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right. And, and it's, it sounds like an odd thing to have to do, but again, it's that idea of teach them what to do. There's that, that is an emotion or a feeling or something your body wants to respond to. So right. Show him how to respond to it.
Speaker 5:Right. Because honestly it's either we're gonna do it in public or we're gonna do it in private. So which one, because we're not gonna extinguish it. We're not, and we shouldn't, we
Speaker 4:Shouldn't. Absolutely. I had a young man years and years and years ago, he was a big boy. And I mean, he was a big boy. I think his name was Ali. And he was like six. And I think he was like 16 or 17. And the parents, you know, due to their culture and their religion, they really wanted us to extinguish it. And I, I, you know, there was, there was no way, you know, he would beat you up and he would do it in the living room floor and, you know, in the car and everything. And so it took a lot of work, but we worked with him on different between private and public and bedroom and bathroom are the only private places in your world right now, you know? But, um, it was, it was a, it was hard cuz you were really changing culture, you know, changing cultural and, and religious beliefs. Um, but you know,
Speaker 5:Well, and that's what like, so the first, the first, um, training that I did, which actually I feel like it didn't go as well. Like I feel like my brain was scattered, but what I was trying to do was use acceptance and commitment therapy principles to talk with parents about, um, uh, about what you, what your values are, um, you know, especially around sexuality. And so you more often than not, you know, well, I, I want my child to, to feel loved and I want my child to have a friend and I want my child to feel good about themselves. That's great. Wonderful. Okay. What are some of the fears that pop up? Well, I'm worried that they're gonna be, um, and where they're gonna be abused. I'm worried they're gonna date someone. Who's not good for them. I'm worried they're gonna be alone. And when these, when these feelings pop up, it is natural for us to, to just do what we need you to get away from those feelings. Okay, well, I'm not gonna touch it. I'm not gonna address it. I'm gonna go take a nap or I'm gonna refuse to let my child do anything and see anything or I'm gonna take away their phone or, you know, a whole bunch of things. And, and so really what is happening is you are not bad. You as a parent are not bad, you value your child, you care about them. And that is commendable on the flip side of that coin come all these negative feelings and emotions that are hard, that are hard. And so it's natural that you would respond that way. So what we need to do is we need to look at what actions do you need to engage in to move closer to what's important to you instead of constantly moving away from being scared, you know? And I think that just, I think that and sexuality just go hand in hand
Speaker 4:It, it absolutely, absolutely do it. And just curious, curiosity, why do you think it not went as well as you wanted it to, um, was it responses from the parents or was it N
Speaker 5:No,
Speaker 4:Just didn't meet your expectations cuz you're a perfectionist<laugh> I have,
Speaker 5:I have, I think one thing I've noticed is that I get really excited about stuff. And so it's hard for me to narrow down to a topic that is easily digestible for other people who didn't spend 40 hours just researching this. And so I think I was trying to pack too much. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that's okay.<laugh> that's okay. But
Speaker 5:This one will be better. The next one will. And that's
Speaker 4:Today at four o'clock Uhhuh. Yeah. Okay. And, um, what's the topic
Speaker 5:Today? Uh, so this one is body positivity and disability acceptance. I love
Speaker 3:That idea. And you know, you were, we, we do live in a conservative country for the most part. I mean, we definitely have a wide variety of people, but it there's something about loving people on the spectrum and wanting, or are people with disabilities and wanting to see their lives better. That will come cause you to think outside the little box that you grew up in. Um, I had the opportunity to visit a country that's mostly Muslim. And one of the women that worked with the kids with a disability was saying basically the same thing. This is not going to go away. This is a, this is something they have to learn. And you know, she was really counseling parents of older or kids about, I, it may not, it may not align real closely with your beliefs that you've grown up with, but you need to think about what's best for your son or daughter, you
Speaker 5:Know? Right. And I think the thing that that is difficult is when you, as a parent have values that are different from your child's values be because you are, especially when you have an, an adult child who, who has very strong views, they could, they could be different from yours. And, and how do we navigate that? And, you know, and going back to what you're saying, Susan, I think one of the reasons I struggled is because I, I'm not a parent. And so I feel like it's wrong of me to lecture and say, well, you know,<laugh>, as a parent, you
Speaker 4:Should do that. I get that. I get that. You know, when I started out, I started out working with kids in their homes and, you know, I would give them suggestions, behavior suggestions. And, and I was really young. I was 25 years old. And so they would say things like, so are you a parent? And I'd be like, no, I'm not, but I, I really know behavior pretty well, you know, so I totally get that. And it is kind, that is kind of, that would be an awkward dynamic for me as well. Um, now, um, I was gonna ask you, are you familiar with Peter Gearhart's work? Yes. Uhhuh. Yep. He's one of my heroes. I love him.
Speaker 5:He's done some really great stuff, especially on, um, reporting, uh, reporting abuse. He's done some really cool stuff with that. Oh yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. Can you update us on that?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so, well, I think this was years ago, but he, so when you're gonna report abuse, there are a couple things you have to, first of all, be able to be able to report past experiences. Um, and so that means, we're thinking about what happened and we've got the ability to communicate it. Um, which is why so often, you know, when you've got like, you know, when kids in elementary school, they take the little note home and you ask them, Hey, what did you do to the, they that is so pertinent, like, yes, have them talk about past events. Anyway, they have to know the names for the body parts. Um, they should also have some basic feeling words in there, sticky, wet, dry, pointy, something like that. And so what they would do, they would do in one, on one sessions, um, you know, maybe you would touch the, the client's shoulder with like a wet sponge and then you would immediately ask them, Hey, how did that feel? And they were taught to say, oh, you know, it felt wet. Oh, well, where, where did it feel wet? Oh, it felt wet on my shoulder. Um, and you know, you gradually include more body parts and more adjectives. And then you get to the part where a third person comes in, touches the individual on older with, you know, the wet sponge and then walk away. And then a couple minutes later you say, Hey, who, who touched you? And they either say the name or they try to describe it. Oh, okay. Well, where did they touch you? Oh, on the shoulder. Okay. Well how did it feel? Oh, it felt wet. Um, so it's, it's definitely like a process and it takes time, but I love how systematic it is.
Speaker 4:I do too. And that's that's um, yeah, super cool and super important for kids to know. And I don't know a lot of people who are on the spectrum who could do that. Yeah.
Speaker 5:But right. Yeah. And one thing that I've been realizing too is, um, so I found so much helpful stuff in the area of, of occupational therapy. There is so much good stuff out there, especially when it comes to like interception and someone's ability to understand what's going on internally. You know, we have all these different senses. We have the, you know, visual, visual senses and tactile and per receptive and all that good stuff. And kind of one, that's getting more research behind it is the interceptive system, which is, which is all internal. And that's your ability to feel hungry, feel full, know when you have to use the bathroom, it's also your ability to feel pain. And it's also how you feel certain emotions. And a lot of there's a whole really cool curriculum out there about how to teach some, how to teach some of those words that are gonna describe internal experiences, which then can help our clients to report abuse or report pain or report pleasure, you know? Sure,
Speaker 4:Sure. How many times have you worked with kids and they've been crying and you're trying to ask them, what's what hurts and you're showing'em pictures and they're not, you know, that, I think teaching body parts is critical for that main reason, you know, not because I know, you know, um, so it's called introspective system.
Speaker 5:Interceptive can you spell that?<laugh> I NT E R O C E P T I V E.
Speaker 4:Gotcha.
Speaker 5:And at Kelly Maller, she's done a lot of good research and she has a really good curriculum out there about how to teach
Speaker 3:It, how so? So important, not even in terms of being able to report the potential for abuse, but to be able to report illness because we do have plenty of our kids yeah. Who will be horribly ill by the time they get to the doctor, because they're, they don't give off the same signals. They don't, you know, they don't know how to describe what they're feeling and it, you know, it's nobody's fault. It's that they're not they're they're, they're neurodiverse. They're different,
Speaker 5:Right? Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so, yeah. Yeah. She, in her, um, I went to a couple, uh, a couple talks that she was giving and she also talks a lot about, uh, being neurodiverse. And what I loved is that she had an individual with her during one of the, the conference talks that she was giving and this individual was neurodiverse and was able to talk about, well, these are my experiences. And, and she brought up a couple things that I thought were incredible. She said, usually in classrooms, whether it's, you know, a special ed classroom or gen ed classroom, we don't teach kids to listen to their body or to honor their body. Um, for instance, she talked about how there was something going on and, and she, she needed a break. She legit needed a break. And the individual who was working with her said, sorry, you haven't earned a break yet. And, and she compared it to earning your insulin. Okay. Well, to someone who right. Had diabetes, do they need to earn their insulin? I thought,
Speaker 4:Right. I mean, couldn't we just ask for a break and get a, I mean, that's such a, that's such a strategy that we teach in schools all the time, teach kids to ask for a break. And when they ask for a break, you honor it, like, you shouldn't have to earn a break. Mm-hmm<affirmative> that's like asking someone you're exactly right. Um, that's
Speaker 3:A really good, you'll have to wait for your insulin. Right.
Speaker 5:Sorry.<laugh>
Speaker 4:You didn't earn your insulin,
Speaker 3:Please. Yeah. And we'll say that a lot of times, when we're working with a student about putting calming strategies on their schedule, do not, this is not something they earn. This is their medicine that you give them on the regular mm-hmm<affirmative> that they, they can choose. Here's an array of things that you can choose. Right. And then you pay attention and help them pay attention to which ones seem to be the most. Right. You know, and then allow them to choose those to help, you know, now, and then when they're beginning to get agitated, you can, it's a lot easier to say, do we need to try a strategy over here versus only pulling the strategy out when they're already about to blow?
Speaker 5:Right. Well, that's what I loved about getting my supervision from you. You, because before I got it from you, you know, I, I was in other clinics doing other stuff and we didn't always give breaks because it, I think, especially in the ABA world, we tend to see it as escape and we're gonna use escape extinction, and we're not gonna let them escape. And we forget, we, we forget that there's other stuff that's going on. And, and I understand that you have people out there that are very pure behavioral analysts, but I, at least in the work that I've done, that I've seen, you have to listen. You have to listen to what's going on in the body. You have to know about occupational therapy stuff. You should be very trauma informed. Uh, I mean, you, there are, there's so much stuff that impacts what is going on. And, and me doing escape extinction is probably honestly doing more harm than, than good, honestly,
Speaker 4:You know, yesterday afternoon I had gotten a contact from a district and I was trying to sign it on Adobe or a about it, Adobe, whatever it's called. And it wasn't letting me, it was just frustrating. And then my scanner wasn't working and it was like, and so I just emailed the lady and I said, I, I am experiencing a high level of frustration right now. So I'm gonna need to take a break. And she was like, kind of laughed, you know? Okay, no problem. But I had to get up and walk away because I was like, oh cool. And you know, I don't wanna engage in habits. That aren't good for me because I'm frustrated. So the best thing for me to do is walk away, go take the dog for a walk, come back and then tackle it again. And sure enough, when I tackled it, everything worked fine, you know, but, um, I think about some of our kids and if they're not given the opportunities to do that, then what are we gonna get as a result, we're gonna get behavior. Right. And so I just, I love the work you're doing. I think it's so critical and so important. And I hope that I just hope that it grows and grows and grows for you because you are so smart and so brilliant and so caring and so passionate about kids and adults. I mean, I shouldn't say kids cuz it's adults really that, um, they need you. I need you not enough of you out there. Aww.
Speaker 5:Thanks. I appreciate that. So I have to tell you a quick story. So I was at a, I was at a Dayhab yesterday and, and I have my clients that I see and you know, we go, we work one on one and in this little room and, and I just kind of check in and I've only got a out four or five clients in this particular day had, so my one client leaves, I open the door, I have a line, I have a line of adults that wanna talk that are not my clients. They are not, I don't even think they know my name, but they, they so badly want someone to, to talk to<affirmative> and to listen to them that they would be willing to line up out outside of stranger door, you know?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And when I said that a minute ago, I didn't mean we were closing up. I just want, I just wanted to say it, it wasn't like a, you know, well, we gotta go now. It was just like, I really wanted to say it. That's amazing. So how did you respond to the line? I,
Speaker 5:I took it, um, yeah, there, there was one guy who was crying profusely saying that everyone hated him. And, and, and again, I, I feel like part of me goes back to, oh, we don't give hugs. We don't do that. And I think, no, you know what? You are crying. You are so upset. Come here, come here. Let me give you a hug. Um,
Speaker 4:I would hang, hug a stranger in Walmart if they needed it. Well, why wouldn't I hug this right man in a
Speaker 5:Dayhab. Yeah. Yeah. And then one other little, uh, old lady, she was nonverbal, but she wanted to go for a walk. So, you know, we took a walk and then, and then I have this other guy and he, he used an, uh, an AAC device to talk. Um, and so we went in and the first thing he said to me is I wanna go to a new Dayhab and I thought, okay, hold on.
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh. And so just for the listeners, if you don't know, an AAC is an alternative augmentative device, alternative augmentative communication
Speaker 5:Device. Yeah. And, and his was high tech. So he, he, uh, was able to type
Speaker 4:Voice out yeah. Voice out. But anyway, I just wanted to clarify that. So what happened
Speaker 5:With him? Well, so I asked him what his name was<laugh> because that I need to know before I can help you. And I asked him if he had a, a case worker. Cause usually when, when they're an adult, you have a case worker either from, you know, the Harris center or could be, you know, tri county, depending on where you are. Um, so ideally that case worker should be focused on client rights. And if the client says, Hey, I wanna go to a new Dayhab. They need to take that seriously and say, okay, cool. Let's find you another one. I got the name of his caseworker and then relayed the message. And that, I mean, now I guess we'll see.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's really all you could do because you're not his caseworker.
Speaker 5:Right. But what, what I think is so sad is that I honestly don't know if anything's gonna change, um, breaks apart because what, what is he supposed to do? You know, if you and I were upset with something, we would know, okay, I'm gonna go here. And then you ha you're able to persist and say, well, that didn't work. I'm gonna problem solve. And I'm gonna go here. Okay, well that didn't work. I'm gonna problem solve again and go here. Or you have a bunch of trusted contacts that you can get to help you. Well, I felt like this particular man, his trusted contact was a stranger that happened to walk into his data.<affirmative>
Speaker 4:Right, right. Sissy and I interviewed Dr. James Williams, um, um, for the podcast. And he was the last two episodes in such a small, crazy world. But I was telling, um, reminding him and telling sissy that years and years, and years and years ago, I was on a plane coming home from the valley or whatever. And this mom was sitting next to me and she was telling me about her son who went to U T and who had failed a test because he forgot to put his name or his ID or something on it. And the young man called his mom and said, come get me. I'm done. I'm done at et I'm done. I'm finished. And so coincidentally, James was the person who was working with him and teaching him self advocacy. But it's that same kind of thing. You know, if that had happened with me or you or sissy, I would go to the professor and ask for a retake. And if the professor said, no, then I would go to the college, you know, Dean, you know, and advocate for myself. But his solution was no, I'm, I'm done with college, you know? Um, and it's just so it's, like I said, it's such a small, crazy world that James was that person's person, but you know, and this is a kid at UT who's obviously pretty high and function, you know, pretty high intellectually. Um, so then, you know, then you're talking about a young man who uses a voice output device. You know, that, that just breaks my, my heart. I know it'll break our listeners' hearts too, to know that that's that's happening. So, you know, if any of you people want to get into adult services, there is a place for people who care.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And even if you're not wanting to be a professional who delivers a service, keep in mind that people with disabilities become adults and they live sometimes away from their family or don't have family anymore to live with. And they still desire a connection with other human beings.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So go going off of that. So again, talking about David Kingsburg, who really is incredible. Um, I was listening to a, that he was giving and he he's old enough. So that when he started, you had all these individuals that, that were institutionalized and now, you know, we closed all those out, Hey, they're bad. And now we're gonna move them into Dayhab, which we thought was gonna be a better solution, but you know, it's not, it isn't always. And so he was taught, telling these stories about individuals with disabilities, that to have a relationship at a Dayhab and the Dayhab staff said, no, we don't do that. You know, we're not gonna get into this. Right. And, and I remember, and this, oh my gosh, like this really just hit me so hard. He said, we as clinicians and professionals, we owe them a deep, deep apology because we did not help them. And we did not let them or give them opportunities or teach them how to have a relationship, shame on us.
Speaker 3:I thought, oh, shame on us. Yeah. I mean, that's a, it's a, it's a human right.<laugh> you know,
Speaker 5:Mm-hmm<affirmative>
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Basic, basic human. Right. Well, um, well I know that you had a time limit, so I wanna honor that. But, um, you know, it seems like every time we do a podcast, I end up crying. Um, because it's just such, it's such important information. And it's, so it's just, it's about, it's about aware, accept and
Speaker 3:Accepting and allowing people with disabilities to be people and, and pursue the things that are important to them. Mm-hmm and respond to them
Speaker 5:Just like you would, but yeah. Respond to them with respect and don't start taking away stuff because you think you're on a higher plane cuz you're not.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I think that's a perfect way to say it. You're not on a higher plate. We're all people.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You're not gonna, nobody's gonna come in my house and take the snacks outta my closet because they've decided they're not appropriate.
Speaker 4:You know, you've had too many brownies, sorry, sissy. Not until you work out with her. Yes. Earn you. You have to earn your insulin now.<laugh>
Speaker 3:Well, I will say if one person develops some passion for this area, this is definitely been time well spent because there is such a high need and
Speaker 4:It'd be great. It is. And, and we appreciate you being a guest on our podcast. I know our people are gonna learn so much and hopefully develop the level of passion that you have with adults. Well, you guys are great. Thank you so much for letting me come. I, I appreciate that. I love talking. Oh my gosh. We love having you. It's so fascinating. And I, you know, I was telling some people at lunch today. I said, you know, you don't, we don't get paid to do a podcast, but it's probably my favorite thing that I'm doing in my world right now. Like I am loving it so much. And it's so, you know, we, we reached a thousand downloads this week, which is, oh my gosh. Yeah. So, you know, we're touching some, we're touching some people. And like sissy said, you know, whenever I do a training and I, maybe it didn't go as well as I wanted it to, or this online stuff. And I have to just check myself and say, if I, if I changed one person's behavior, then I didn't my job. And I think the same thing applies to you. You know, if you can help one person change their behavior with how they interact with people on the spectrum or with any disability, then you've done a good job. So thanks for being here.
Speaker 3:And you know, you're doing that every day, you know, you're changing lives every so you<laugh>
Speaker 4:Yay. Well, it's good to catch up and good to see your face and good to hear from you. And, um, I'm just so excited that you're doing this stuff, but yeah, I send your stuff. I, I sent when you sent whatever your, uh, last, uh, newsletter was, I sent it to all my people and I said, you really need to take advantage of this. This is free for P this is really good stuff. And I don't know, you know, maybe there are one PRC, one person will bite, but again, one person to one person. So yeah. So we'll give the best of luck to you and keep in touch with us. I will, I will. Thank you guys.
Speaker 2:Before we get to the question for today, Trisha spoke of the incredible influence Dave. He had on her work. The podcast was recorded prior to July 18th, which is the day that he died. We hope that his friends and family come to know the amazing impact. He had our condolences to all who
Speaker 4:Loved him. Well, Sisi part one was amazing. And part two was even more amazing with Trisha. Um, she just really shed some light on some topics for me and I hope she did for our audience. Oh
Speaker 3:Yeah. I, she is so inspirational to listen to just so much care and concern for people with disabilities, you know, and making sure that they are treated like human beings who deserve to be on this earth and, and, and able to do the, the same things that anyone else would do. I don't know if that makes sense, but you know, that
Speaker 4:It does. And you know, you know, I, I love the whole neurodiversity movement that we're experiencing now. And I was in a meeting yesterday and I was kind of talking a little bit about that. You know, about how we describe these kids, you know, instead of high functioning and low functioning, talking about them needing less academic support. So we're more, you know, academic support or independent, more independent and getting away from that, you know, whole high-functioning kids, cuz like I think I read somewhere or maybe she said it or something, but how would you like to be described as high-functioning or low-functioning<laugh> you know?
Speaker 3:Um, right, right. And, and, and given different circumstances, I might be considered high functioning or low functioning. If you bring out an ergonomic book here I am totally.
Speaker 4:Or when it comes to technology or editing our zoom, our zoom meetings. But, um, anyway, she's, she's amazing and I'm glad she's a part of our world because, um, it's great to have somebody like that in our world.
Speaker 3:It, do you have a test question, Susan?
Speaker 4:Yes. I do have a question. Let me read it to you. In Trisha's interview, she talked about the benefits of working with adults on the spectrum and those with other disabilities. She talked about some of the challenges, particularly when they get arrested for some kind of societal violation, there's a large body of race search regarding applied behavior analysis for adults. Many of the research topics focus on a communication training, B community training C social skills training D discreet trial training E a B and C.
Speaker 3:Well, okay. Um, yes. Let's just talk about them. Communication training is critical throughout lifetime. Yep. So there has to be research topics and I'm sure I've read some about communication training with adults on the spectrum. Some agree with that one community training that is the older kids get, the more we are concerned about that, their ability to have a job or yeah. Navigate their community themselves when, when, when able to live in the community rather than with family, if that's possible in. So yes, that social skills training. So does social skills drop off when you become an adult? I've seen some adults that I believe their social skills have dropped off. Not necessarily people on the spectrum.<laugh>
Speaker 4:Sometimes I wonder about mine after pandemic of being at home so much. Sometimes I go to social events and I'm like, do I even know how, what to do now? You know,<laugh> are we hugging? Are we not knuckle bumping? Are we elbow bumping? Like what are we doing? I literally,
Speaker 3:When I was in work at work yesterday, I saw an old friend in the hallway and I was like, are we, are we not hugging? Like, she's like, I've been vaccinated, I'm hugging. But you know, you really have to like, whereas a year and a half ago, it would've been a no brainer. Of course you're gonna hug, you know, so right. And, and the new social, the new social piece of checking a business to see if they have a sign about masks or no masks or, you know, looking to see he, we had someone come to the house to do some work and he was wearing a mask and I said, uh, you can wear your mask. It's fine. But I just want, you know, we're both vaccinated and he's like flipped off the mask. He's like, great. I just have to, you know, know that they don't ask you, you know, have you been, I mean, they're not gonna say, so have you been vaccinated because some people would be offended by that question?
Speaker 4:Of course. Yeah. I was in the school, uh, uh, district last week doing the training. We had 60 people, a lot of teachers and pair of professionals and quite a few people wore a mask cause it's fine. That's completely their choice. I was not as a speaker and as cuz I've been vaccinated and I couldn't speak for three hours with a mask on, but I, you know, I had my mask off and of course I was six or 10 feet away from everybody, but I said, you know, just so you know, I've been vaccinated. So if I get close to you, you know, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable, but I will ask you, you know, so if I demonstrated something, I'd be like, can I get close to you? You know, which is just, you know, it's so funny that, um, how much COVID has changed some of those social expect and social norms that, you know, cause a lot of people are like, no.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And there's some people that, you know, are vaccinated and are still choosing to wear a mask. And I, and I say, you do that.
Speaker 4:You do that. Absolutely. Do you? Absolutely. Do you, so communication community
Speaker 3:Social. Yeah. Yeah. Discreet trial training, you know, we, we talk a lot about that. You can do discrete trial in a wide variety of wide variety of settings and places for true.
Speaker 4:Um sure.
Speaker 3:But I don't know that I've read anything about discrete trial for adults. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think, you know, I remember years and years and years ago I was really fortunate enough to attend an I R low boss training. And um, it was right. You know, kind of when ABA was getting like a lot of popularity. Um, and I remember someone said, you know, what about for an adolescent or an adult? And he said, oh, it would look so much different. It would not be need any at the table. He said it would be, you know, in the community and in the home. And so you might say something like, um, okay, let's make the bed step one, put the sheet on. Oh good. You did the sheet. Step two, put the pillowcase on, you know what I'm saying? So it would be discreet trials, but not in that. What I think people consider that more traditional need to need, you know, one on one touch, red touch, blue touch, this what's four plus four what's eight plus you know, that kind of thing. So I just don't think that there's a whole lot of research with are to that really traditional model of discrete trial teaching with kids on the spectrum or other disabilities when they're older.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For, for, as they become adults, even though you very likely are using task analysis and teaching steps, a recipe is a task analysis.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah. I know. I still read back of the rice box to cook the rice.<laugh><laugh> I finally graduated from having to look up how to hard boil eggs.<laugh>
Speaker 3:<laugh> oh, that's funny.
Speaker 4:I won't tell you why<laugh> no, I really, this, I have a cheater. I bought this thing on Amazon. It's shaped like an egg and you opened it up and it got four little, like, it looks like a poacher and then you put water and you put it in the microwave for 12 minutes and then I
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Oh, that's funny. That's funny. Um, okay. So then are we saying is a, B and C?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think that, that, you know, when you do look at the Reese search with regard to adults with disabilities and especially kids with adults, with autism communication trainings, social skills, training and community training are really the three areas that are most researched. So
Speaker 3:Well, there you go. Hopefully that helps. And the things that she talked about were all things that help individuals, uh, with disabilities communicate better function in their community and developing those social skills in particular, developing relationships are friendships with others.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And the whole safety piece too, I think is critical. Um, I think so many of our adults that we graduate, um, are, are really vulnerable because they didn't have significant or sufficient training in those areas. So hopefully you all enjoyed, uh Trista's story as much as CIY and I did. And um, as always, we encourage you to like share or comment on any social media platform or like comment on the podcast app that you use. Thank you so much, everybody hope you have a great weekend.
Speaker 3:Hope you come back next Friday. Yes.
Speaker 4:CCI CCI. And I'll be chatting up some more. Talk to you soon. Take care. Have a good day. Thanks guys. Bye.